MOTFA Episode Two – Week One - "FA Team Structure" Discussion

Safehands · Cult Status

MOTFA Episode Two – Week One - "FA Team Structure" Discussion

Spartikus47 · Cult Status

Firstly thank you very much Simon for inviting me down today! I never pass up an opportunity to put my thoughts out to the Football Academy World.

On the subject of transfer policies, and ultimately team structures I am a great believer of individual circumstances. Last year a young Coventry team got my promoted via the play-offs. I believe and still believe that young blood is best suited to the lower leagues to learn and develop away from the glare of the top leagues. Giles Barnes, Nicolo Brighenti, Matthew Fryatt and Sergio Aguero all flourished here last year, while Gianlucca Musacci went out to Derby on loan and excelled. This makes it a viable option for lesser teams to improve their squads with good, young talent.

Having just been promoted however I am finding myself in the opposite situation. I have now started swapping some of my talented youngsters for some older, more experienced pros. Rather than being in a position where I can wait for the young lads to develop I now need instant results to stay in the Championship.

I believe that a teams structure should be determined by their expectations and requirements. The better managers will ultimately realise this and buy accordingly. I think Arsenal suffered last season with bringing too much young talent through at once but now they have got through last season they will improve this season. Simon you must be incredibly excited about some of the young talent you have at your disposal, do you really think Seria B is the best place for them? Personally I think i would have placed them in La Liga (Spanish Primera).

-- Edited by Spartikus47 at 14:53, 2008-06-24

-- Edited by Spartikus47 at 14:54, 2008-06-24

Safehands · Cult Status

Well - for me personally - it was a very conscious decision to bring all my talent together at roughly the same time and suffer the perks and benefits accordingly

The risk is that obviously it creates too much pressure and you cannot cope. But with enough attrition you can get through the hard times and flourish when they all improve together. For example I had no less than 10 player improvements last year which should make this year easier to manage. However I generally feel that this year will be even more difficult than last so i will have to endure another hard season before world class improvements are made

And regarding my loan players, I disagree actually. Serie A for the most part would be a step too far at this point. I wonder if people are not giving Serie A the credit it deserves? It is comparable to the hardest league in the game perhaps and a quick look at the talent in that league means the likes of Irarusso will be MUCH better off in the lower leagues for the time being. You also have to bear in mind the opposition these players will face when developing their training. Lesser opposition, means more improvement points, and better development

Simple really!

cheers

Simon N

Spartikus47 · Cult Status

It is a good point, and one which is well made. I just cant help thinking Walcott especially could have performed at a higher level this season. But I can also see the advantages of keeping your players together at one team.

As far as other managers transfers have gone this season I think a few have given glaring insights into some intriguing plans. No doubt there will be some big transfers over the coming weeks and it should give us a fascinating insight into managers psyches. I know I have five deals already in place up to week 5 and many other managers will have similar arrangements which will ultimately have a massive impact on all the leagues this season.

messiah · Cult Status

I think this weeks topic is one factor in making great fa managers. The managers who do really well are the managers who have a goal in mind and a way of getting there planned out. I think there are some managers here who are very good at transfers but they deal because they get an email and not because it will take them closer to their aim.

If I can take the conversation away from Coventry for a minute there are some managers that I speak to and get the idea that they have one aim and want to work to that. Arsenal will always be a team for developing young talented players because that is what you conecentrate on Simon. I can not see that changing because it is your fixed plan. I have spoken to Juventus and Sevilla and the Wolves managers before and they both have a plan for where they want their team to be. It has been nice to hear from two new managers this week that they have certain types of players they want to improve their team because it shows new managers are coming in with longer plans.

Some teams pretend to have a plan because they think it makes them look better. I will take the conversation back to Coventry. If your plan changes every season it is not one team plan. We both came up last season but my plan has not changed. I will keep young players with one or two more experienced stars because I think in a few seasons that way can get me promoted again. Coventry have reversed their plan so last season was not a real plan if you now think it can not get you any further.

Trying to judge improvements will be a big part of designing the structure of your team. The new game has put every one back to nearly the same level of knowledge so it will be interesting to see who succeeds and fails with guessing how the improvements will work.

Spartikus47 · Cult Status

Just because a short term plan changes does not mean that the long term plan does. I appreciate Watford trying to put in a bit of a cheap shot, as it is now more expected than speculated. But I thank Mr Walker as it gives me a chance to clarify my plans.

I believe this is as valid a method of team development as any other, and will stick by it to the end. For a smaller team, with little money, and few youth prospects, who find themselves in the bottom tier of their respected countries the goal is simple. They need to increase squad quality and try to get to a position to gain promotion. This is what I did at Coventry. I brought in 6 players under 26 all with talent 3 or above with absolutely no money. My team that got me promoted included 9 out of 11 players with talent 3 or above and this was instrumental in my success. I was aiming for an average age of around 27 (And I ended up with 28.2).

This season it is inevitable that adaptations had to be made to that plan. Some younger players had to be sacrificed to give me the leverage in the transfer market to bring in sufficient quality to compete at this level. Mr.Walker may speculate otherwise, but to be honest, I dont really care. I will still have a core group of players under 28, which I believe is key for long term sustainable success, but will supplement that with quality older veterans.

There is no one right way to develop a team, and I believe it is incredibly ignorant to suppose so.

Speculation over my planning is fine; to be honest I am happy to let my team talk for itself. But any manager I am close to on this game knows that I think long and hard about what I want to add to my team before even looking through the squad lists. I met all my goals last year and have made definitive strides already this season to get my squad where I want it.

Thank you for letting me clarify my personal situation on team structure and planning Mr Walker.

messiah · Cult Status

Spartikus47 wrote:

But I thank Mr Walker as it gives me a chance to clarify my plans.

I am pleased I could help you talk more about yourself. bleh

Spartikus47 · Cult Status

Then everyone is happy Mr Walker!

Sorry I cannot be as modest and unspoken as yourself. smile

Anyway lets not allow Mr Walker to retract from the theme of the MOTFA threads. What does everyone else think? What long term plans will you be employing? Do you feel that your long term plan may be proving to be less effective as you first thought? Lets hear your ideas?

-- Edited by Spartikus47 at 14:21, 2008-06-26

Bluebird99 · Cult Status

Ok, If I can interumpt the head butting of the alpha males one minute lol.

A great topic unfolding here. I personally have a long term plan similar to Simons. I want to build a young team that will challenge for years but also be able to bring success now. That means that you cant always buy young players or even keep onto your young stars - Pique to Arsenal being one of them.

Obviously when I took over at Leicester, I didnt have a great deal of money but always tried to bring in some young players like Pique, Hoyte, Traore, Paulinho etc. I will try and do the same at Cagliari although the lower the tier then longer it seems to take. I think that sometimes you have to sacrafice SOME of your long term plan to get instant success but cant take your eye off the final goal.

Spartikus47 · Cult Status

Well said Steve. I think that sums it up nicely. The long term goal is something to focus on, but the here and now is also essential and few teams have the luxury of having little or no pressure to produce results immediately.

-- Edited by Spartikus47 at 15:06, 2008-06-26

Bluebird99 · Cult Status

Yeah, I mean don't get me wrong - I think that the long term goal is massive but I took something out of the way Gareth opperated last season. Yes, He had an aging squad but it took the eventual winner (you) to stop them.

Solano showed you don't have to be a spring chicken to perform well. Obviously though Leeds now have to undergo a massive facelift and good luck to Neal for that.

Football Academy · Cult Status

Can we try and keep the snide comments to the media please, and also I think Simon intended it to be a general question so lets try not just looking at the clubs of the panel if possible. Correct me if I'm wrong Simon.

Richard.

Spartikus47 · Cult Status

Fair point Rich, although I think beinging in clubs to illustrate examples is fine.

Bluebird99 · Cult Status

Football Academy wrote:

Can we try and keep the snide comments to the media please, and also I think Simon intended it to be a general question so lets try not just looking at the clubs of the panel if possible. Correct me if I'm wrong Simon.

Richard.

Well as no-one other than Jamie is pitching in, We are only able to talk about our clubs. Also - If you read my comments - I was also talking about Leeds United last season.

Agree about the snide comments though

GarethGardner · Cult Status

I just think this managerial regime is a learning curve. Iv had 2 feeder clubs in 2 years now. Both worked very well in Chelsea and Bracelona. Unfortunately we had a sour break at Chelsea but this happens in life.
My first season was about experimenting and I just missed out on the playoffs which I probably would have won as very big names would have played for me in,such as Ronaldinho, Messi etc etc.
My second season I decided to get another feeder club in Chelsea. So I bought an experianced squad myself and used Chelsea s youth to blend both youth and experiance together.
Now this season I im settled at a club which I like. Im bringing in my own younger talented talent 3 and 4 players in and also trying to mix it with the experiance that is allready there. Any extra loan signings that become available that will make my team stronger I will take and then try to loan my younger players out for experiance. I see this as a long term plan and hope to keep my youngsters that Im nurturing through.

Football Academy · Cult Status

Sorry for the confusion Steve, I should have said look 'only' at their clubs, ie. try not to just talk about your own club all the time, add a wider view. Again, unless Simon brought Mark in to talk about Coventry's structure in which case ignore my point.

Richard.

drewf · League Player

interesting subject, for once I have to agree with Gareth (only on the learning curve bit) I have brought a few younger players into the chelsea squad with the intention of developing them through loans for a season or 3.

I think managers views on young or old depends on thier own aims, I.e Empoli selling off younger talent to get older players in to survive this season and then use that success to move on to another club, my view is where does that leave Empoli - I like a manager to have long term asperations and plans, Arsenal, Man City, Watford all seem to want long term stability and have invested wisely with a mixture of youth and experience, the most successful teams and managers seem to be the ones that stick at a club for a few seasons.

I am not trying to critisize managers for cashing in on a potential superstar as long as its long term stability that is achieved and not a stepping stone to another club leaving behind pensioners

Roma was not built in a day

JOP · Cult Status

Must agree with that Drew, a good mix is vital for long term survival. Especially as if you get promoted then you do not get a lot (if any) cash to spend for getting promoted. So if you have old players who may have got you promoted but will not be there to help you the following season and leaves you with a small squad and no money!

I am trying to build a mixture here in Sunderland, thats why I have just sold Mancini to Man u. I had Muntari young but very good plus 6m to strengthen my squad.

Safehands · Cult Status

Cheers for the comments chaps

Just to clarify something Rich touched on - this is supposed to mimic a panel show and the bickering just annoys me to be honest

Mark wasnt bought it to add a Coventry flavour to any of this, simply as a panelist

Simon J made a good point to me today actually - would you tune in to a show where the three managers only talked about themselves? By all means chip in with your comments on your own teams and those around you but i want all this to be for all of FA - not just Arsenal, Cagliari and whoever the guest speaker is

cheers

Sim

ps can i also add that i thought Jamies comments were quite playful to be honest. Can everyone have a bit of patience and not lose their cool and perhaps write witty media as a reply instead? Bickering will get you nowhere - honestly - and most of us have learnt that through bitter experience lol

think about the time that goes in to writing all this stuff and then imagine how much it either annoys or bores the managers that did it - when posts just become people having a pop at each other? it can only mean one or both of two things will happen:

Rich will delete your post either himself or having been asked by me
ill stop doing all this as that wasnt the original point of it all

simple as that really!

cheers all!

pps on a better note - i quite like this topic and some of the points above are quite interesting

-- Edited by Safehands at 22:14, 2008-06-26

Besty · Cult Status

I think it's good to have a long term structure/plan in place, but i have found in my experience on here that it's not always easy to stick to that.

As with many of the new managers on here i'm sure will find, the first season is all about learning, consolidation and building strong links with other clubs/managers. Being one of the smaller clubs, i don't really see it as an option for me to bring in lots of youth, if i want to move up the leagues as part of my long term plan i need quality, so i have had to sacrifice talented players to generate cash to bring in the necessary squad players.

This season i think will be better again and thats due to the feeder set up with Sevilla and also my links with Watford and Man City, all three seem to have a great batch of young talented players which is what i hope to end up with at the level they are. I will now have a mixture of good players with youth added in, these are also good players but not up to the standard that the big clubs need so it suits both parties.

Bringing in youth players on loan is great until they are gone, because their fitness at the end of the season can give you that edge you need in a playoff/title push so without them you may suffer. However, i commend Gareth for his work at Leeds last year, having an old but large squad which meant he could rotate his players without losing too much effect on the pitch, if they had gone up though, you have to wonder what sort of season they would have had in the Championship.

I think the general rule is that the smaller clubs will have older but slightly better players (than a majority of the lower teams around them) and the youth will come on loan from the bigger clubs who are always looking for that ideal '5 year plan' where the youth comes through to shine at the highest level. Unfortunately bringing in young quality tends to cost big money which on the whole the smaller clubs don't have.

If other managers in my position have a different approach then i'd be keen to hear it, i think the scouting system is a good one and i will certainly be getting a scout, but thats for another topic!

-- Edited by Besty at 08:01, 2008-06-27

Simon · Cult Status

I would think that plans would depend on aims - someone who supports say, Man U. (in real life) and managed at Birmingham wouldnt even get close to the job. So if they saw a rumour (courtesy of our very own rumour page!) that the manager was set to leave at the end of the season; then they would probably sell off their young players and buy in very old, good ones in order to get promoted if only for the managerial points they would gain. Of course someone who gets Birmingham promoted probably wouldnt get the Man U. job, but its a step in the right direction!

I also think that aims depends on other aspects not mentioned yet, like the chaiman and the assisstant - dont mean to bring my own team into it, but my assisstant has got a high youth rating and has consistantly brought out top class youth players who can jump straight into the team and play well - just having a quick browse and it becomes obvious that tems such as Inter and AC Milan have no youth policies at all and this shows in their teams - however they have very good, very old players who are not deteriorating because of the training bonus they have.

Simon

Luke_C · Cult Status

I think to be highly successful over a long time you must have a good mixture of youth experience and quality. I made a long term plan of bringing in young quality to Manchester City and in my first season it worked and we gained promotion at our first attempt. However after promotion it was a very different story and the young players struggled because of a lack of quality despite having massive potential. I had to change the short term plan for the good of the long term plan and sold Adebayor and brought in aging stars such as Aimar and Anelka. The mixture work and we stayed up as per our target. Luckily Ive had sufficient funds to be able to do this but that isnt the case for a lot of clubs.

I find the short term route AC Milan have taken a worry as I cant see them challenging for the title in the coming seasons without major investments from there chairman. There aging stars are starting to become un-sellable.

If I had taken over a lower league club with a small budget I may have went along the route of bringing in older players with good stats and perhaps put myself in the shop window through good results for a better job.

Feeder clubs are interesting point
For the parent club its an excellent way to gain young players experience.

However my worry is for some of the feeder clubs and the way that squad is managed. Both Leicester and Cagliari had excellent feeder club links ups with top teams however as soon as they left there former clubs and the feeder players were no long available there squads were left in desperate states.

If they had got promoted then maybe the short term plan would have been satisfied however neither did.

Im not sure on the stats but how many of the feeder clubs have actually been successful?

Norwich I know had a good link up and gained promotion but are they in a strong position now the players have returned and the manager gone?

(No offence to any club or manager used above)